Amazing!

M. I think I will have to disappoint you tomorrow. I will tell the three of you from book club that I have done psychadelics probably hundreds of times in the late 70’s and early 80’s as many others have. I am neither proud nor ashamed of it. it just is. I also feel like that was in another life time and am feeling anxiety about the topic in book club tomorrow. I dont want the others knowing that much of me because no matter what we say, people judge. I didn’t do the excersize at the end of chapter 1 for the same reason. Many if not most of my land mark times in those years included acid, mushrooms or mesculine (how ever it is spelled) not to mention every other drug on the planet. (Those are just the psychadelics). I dont even know what I am trying to say…..let me try again…

In those days, drugs and alchohol defined who I was, I absolutely loved all three of those drugs. I would never do them now and the experiences are way to personal to talk about without the “feeling” of the things I was running from and the highs I felt coming back. Like I physically feel the anxiety and stress just thinking of it now. Unless you were me and lived like I did (and I was a party girl) you couldn’t understand. Those things have no part of my life now and I dont like going to that side of the tracks again with just anyone and I definately dont want to go there with book club tomorrow. Boy, that was alot of words to just say that :) I guess I acutally am ashamed of those years of my life or I wouldn’t care if people judged me for it. I think talking about it glamorizes it. I think that is what I dont want to do. OMG, I am talking in circles. Good night.

Thank you Dee Dee. You said perfectly why I don’t believe psychadelic drugs actually take you to a spiritual experience. I think it helps you escape from any experiences. No need to further that conversation right now. We can have it when we get to that chapter.

Dee Dee, you are a sum total of all your experiences. I think you are absolutely wonderful and part of you being wonderful is your experiences. You need to stop feeling ashamed for what you did in the past because it made you who you are today and you are awesome.

I would like to remind everyone that this is an open and public forum.  It is way more open than talking at the book club.  That said - let me say, D2, that I’m pretty sure you are a baby in the drug world compared with many - most - me!  You guys know I go to AA, my first treatment was in 85 for about as heavy drugs as you can get - so I have 23 years clean on that, but I have struggled with other things like prescription drugs and alcohol for many years since then.

Personally, psychedelics taken in the right circumstances can open the mind to a totally different reality.  Seeing the life energy in everything - plant animal and mineral.  The problem I think with that culture is that the kids who were doing it (me included) didn’t realize they were looking for a spiritual experience, so unless someone incredibly enlightened happened upon them, it could be a frightening experience and really messed many of us up.  Would I do it again?  I’m not sure.  Probably under the right experiences.  Never for recreation.  It would depend on who was suggesting it and why.  Playing with drugs is like worshiping evil.  It’s such a waste of a life and energy.  Meditating on the concept of evil is not a waste.  I will not close the possibility that there are right times and ways to use drugs - like after surgery under the care of a doctor (and possibly, in a foreign country under the care of a medicine person who knows how to use them and when and why for the spiritual stuff).  I really agree with you D2 that it isn’t good or bad and with Debby that all this stuff is part of what brought us to where we are now.  Like I said, I went to bed laughing - no there were no drugs involved.  These days, I get high from you guys.  I encourage you to come to the book club D2, if you can.  If not, come for a cup of coffee before it starts so we can bask in your aura.  I need a beauty fix - I think I get that by osmosis from you.  I even wore makeup twice last week.  See - I was inspired!

I agree with you all, about everything (except the inspiration to wear make up since I dont wear it:)I also know this is an open forum but the stuff onthis topic is strait from a book they reccomended. That is why I typed it here to tell you all I dont want to talk about it at book club. I mean, I will talk about the topic, just not the personal experiences. Just a warning though, it will make me really uncomfortable. That is ok though, I am thinking I have more margins than I thought with the topic. Maybe it’s just time to blow out of this box and you guys are the ones to do it with. Go ahead, bring your TNT!

If you want to say that drugs can lead to a spiritual experience than you have to include certain foods as well. It has the same affects as drugs in people who use it for such. I can tell you that my addictions to food do give me a temporary high and get me through rough times, but it sure doesn’t accentuate my spirtual connections or experiences.

Absolutely. LOL. Michele you are so awesome. Thank you for finding me. :)

you 4 chicks are a trip. y’all know that?

and in a very good, non drug induced way. thanx for allowing someone as….”lost” as i am to read along!!!

greta food for the soul here

as always

with you 4!!!

Debby, I’m not sure about this. BUT, I was thinking that food maybe was more like alcohol (comforts to the people using them for comfort), rather than changing the perception of reality like psychedelics/hallucinogenics, which are what I was talking about for the spiritual experience stuff. I don’t really think it matters greatly. I don’t think anyone should be using anything for the wrong reasons (abusing) - but that applies to everything - even people and sex - it goes back to the “intentions” and if the intentions are right, then the actions/procedures need to be right also. No matter what I do, if I abuse it - use it wrong (including too much or at the wrong times - like DUI or overeating) - I run the risk of hurting myself and possibly others. But that doesn’t mean I can’t use use anesthesia if I have surgery. I just think there is a difference that maybe you are not seeing because of your (understandable) disgust for drugs…?!… This is all theoretical and I don’t know why I’m beating a dead horse here.I can’t imagine you trying this path and I don’t think anyone is saying you should. I also don’t think anyone is saying that abusing drugs is the path to awakening either.I think the book is saying that in some controlled circumstances, some people/some cultures have found this path helpful.

that which hurts one comes from within one’s own self, not the addictions & codependencies on others or material possessions. Anything thought of as “good” can become harmful to us if “used” improperly or abused, whether it be drugs, sex, money, food, religion, etc.

sounds like a future blog….

M – you know you aching to try this stuff (not talking about Granny here).We can’t give you a reason. Must come from yourself because we don’t want to explain anything to my hero!hehehe

I didn’t mean to be dark.  I meant to be funny.  I don’t really see these as your steps unless you take a trip to somewhere in Africa or something.  But, who knows what will come up over time.  I think we’ve beat this horse, although Debby may have something to say when she gets off work.  At this point and with what I know about us, it doesn’t seem like any of us are in danger of needing to make any decisions on this subject in the near future.  Well, Sev did go out of the country, but last time I thought about it, I didn’t think Israel was big on psychedelics!  You know a great topic would be the energy Sev was talking about last night in the various places and the energy she got from the other visitors in some.  I’d love to hear more about her whole trip or any part of it.

I have this book sitting on the passenger seat of my car, and it’s been such a treat to visit (and revisit and revisit). How did I not know there was a discussion around it here? Especially one that’s as rich and provocative as the book itself?

I went to graduate school at an institution that included a number of professors who used to work therapeutically with psychedelics prior to such substances being made illegal. One of the topics that frequently came up was the notion of a ‘container’ for the experiences they brought about–that is, in traditional cultures, there was an accompanying story and shared social space that made it easier for those who took such drugs to navigate and make sense of the altered states they were in. This tradition started a bit in the 60s, but was nipped in the bud by the law and the existing status quo, which saw such experiential openings as a threat to the system, and today few (if any) such ‘containers’ exist… which might be one reason why the use of psychedelics in this culture is a risky / shaky path toward spirituality.

Just my $0.02. Thanks wonderfully for this thread. :)

LOL Judy. I do not have a disgust for drugs. I would say 80% of the people I know habitually use drugs or alcohol. I just don’t believe it can give you a spiritual experience. I believe it can give you an experience, I just don’t believe it gets you closer to God. I think we get closer to God by ridding our bodies of chemicals. Matter of fact, of all the people I know who are constantly altered, none of them are particularly spiritual. Some are religious and love the song “What if God smoked Cannibus”. That aside, I think putting substances in our bodies (and I am not innocent by any means) keeps us from being clear. If the drug use of the 60’s really brought about spiritual experiences, don’t you think this world would be a lot different by now?

I am willing to agree to disagree with people on this. I also don’t think you need to quit drinking coffee, smoking, eating the horrendous chemicals they put in our food etc…. Matter of fact, this planet is tough, we can get spiritual when we go back home. Lets just get through while we are here. LOL.

well..i’ll add to Debby’s last comment here with this: i stopped”doing” caffeine (coffee, tea, sodas, whatever) because i felt like it did put a “fog” in between myself & connecting more so with my inner self, GOD, or whatever you’d like to refer to the actual process as. NOT actually agreeing with ALL of what you stated, Debby, but i Do respect your input here. And i loved reading what Siona commented on.

come to think about it a little more AFTER the fact…DEBBY….perahps i DO agree with you in all that you stated, because i also gacve up alcohol & other “stuff” in the desire to get closer to GOD in me. Hmmmm……

Ok, now that I have drank my mushroom tea and eatenmy marijuana brownies, I am understanding this blog…. Just kiddin

This is to Siona if your still out there. You are the reason we are reading this book and this blogs exists.Months ago when we first sighed onto Gaia, you sent out a blanket email (I actually have no idea how I would have gotten your email) and it was about this book. Remember that? Well, we were just finishing the first book in our newly formed book club here in wonderful (can’t say sunny) Everett Wa. and were deciding on a new book. I felt drawn to this book from your email and ordered it that same day. So when the subject came up in our club a week or so later I had just recieved it in the mail and hadn’t even looked at it but knew it was a book I wanted to read and discuss with others. I recommended it and we chose it. We have had 4 or 5 meetings (I think, someone can correct me) and this book is so full of meat that we are STILL barely finished discussing chapter 2. Just think, we get together in person and discuss it we can still add to it when M blogs about it.

So wow, thank you for taking the time to send that email out. You never know who and when you are going to change someones life!!! GOD is so Awesome!!! What a miricle you even found this one blog in thousands on this site!!! Double WOW.

Well…all i can tell you for MY having given up my fave mornin’ coffee kick was that while I would be driving into work early in the morn (and i DO mean early), i have some serious meditative/contemplative time ,and one morning i was beginning to raise the cup to my lips, when something inside of me stopped me, realizing that the feeling i have BEFORE i drank that first sip was ALWAYS more in tune than once i got the first tatse & the caffeine went coursing thru me.

I’m still out here… and so sweetly surprised to hear that it was my email that started this! Goodness. Thank you so much for letting me know, and again, for continuing the whole theme of the book so beautifully.

I don’t think I’d get by without my morning coffee though. Maybe in my next lifetime. ;)

believe you me….QUITE the difficult task (quitting the coffee thang). i’d been drinking coffee since the 5th grade. And that was a LOOOOONNNNGGGGGG time ago.

As I sit here with my cup of coffee, re-reading this thread, I have to laugh.  Well, I don’t have to laugh - but it’s one of my favorite past-times, so I do it whenever I can and I am now - so that’s what that was about.  This really was an awesome conversation.  AND - it’s inspired me to consider, starting to think about quitting coffee.  hehehe  I mean that in all seriousness, but it really is/would be so HUGE for me that I’m not sure what year I’m actually going to reach the destination in my reality.

I have quit coffee about a thousand times now and always gone back. I am not sure I like living life without coffee. I am still drinking my morning cup at home but I have once again quit lattes for a couple of weeks now. I miss it terribly. :(

Here is an article that was on msn.com TODAY:

Why didn’t it show the article????

WEDNESDAY, Dec. 10 (HealthDay News) – Science is verifying what many overeaters have suspected for a long time: sugar can be addictive.

In fact, the sweetener seems to prompt the same chemical changes in the brain seen in people who abuse drugs such as cocaine and heroin.

The findings were to be presented Wednesday at the American College of Neuropsychopharmacology’s annual meeting, in Nashville.

“Our evidence from an animal model suggests that bingeing on sugar can act in the brain in ways very similar to drugs of abuse,” lead researcher Bart Hoebel, a professor of psychology at Princeton University, said during a Dec. 4 teleconference.

“Drinking large amounts of sugar water when hungry can cause behavioral changes and even neurochemical changes in the brain which resemble changes that are produced when animals or people take substances of abuse. These animals show signs of withdrawal and even long-lasting effects that might resemble craving,” he said.

Dr. Louis Aronne, director of the Comprehensive Weight Control Program at New York-Presbyterian Hospital/Weill Cornell Medical Center in New York City, added: “The big question has been whether it’s just a behavioral thing or is it a metabolic chemical thing, and evidence like this supports the idea that something chemical is going on.”

A “sugar addiction” may even act as a “gateway” to later abuse of drugs such as alcohol, Hoebel said.

The stages of addiction, as defined by the American Psychiatric Association, include bingeing, withdrawal and craving.

For the new research, rats were denied food for 12 hours a day, then were given access to food and sugar (25 percent glucose and 10 percent sucrose, similar to a soft drink) for 12 hours a day, for three to four weeks.

The bingeing released a surge of the neurotransmitter dopamine each time in the part of the brain involved in reward, the nucleus accumbens. “It’s been known that drugs of abuse release or increase the levels of dopamine in that part of the brain,” Hoebel said.

But it wasn’t only the sugar that caused this effect, Hoebel explained – it was the sugar combined with the alternating schedule of deprivation and largesse. After three weeks, the rats showed signs of withdrawal similar to those seen when people stop smoking or drinking alcohol or using morphine.

The scientists next blocked the animals’ brain endorphins and found withdrawal symptoms, anxiety, behavioral depression and a drop in dopamine levels. In other words, they confirmed a neurochemical link with the rats’ behavior.

But longer periods of abstinence didn’t “cure” the rats. Instead, there were long-lasting effects with the animals: They ingested more sugar than before, as if they were craving the substance and, without sugar, they drank more alcohol.

The researchers speculated that some of these brain changes may also occur in people with eating disorders such as bulimia and anorexia, although more research needs to be done to confirm the effects in humans.

“Some say it’s easy to lose weight – you just have to shut your mouth, stop eating so much,” Aronne said. “I tell them a good way to overcome global warming is if people made less carbon dioxide by breathing less. Obviously, that’s absurd. You can’t do it because you feel uncomfortable.

“The same thing is true of eating,” he added. “Fattening food has an impact on the regulating mechanism that breaks down your sense of fullness, makes you feel an urge to go back and get that blast of sugar and this creates the vicious cycle of weight gain that we’re going through.